Systems Thinking World Perspectives / Issues Public

The Perspectives Project Q&A #68

Gene Bellinger

If you have questions, comments or thoughts about new perspectives for The Perspectives Project please post them to this thread.

Richard Turnock

There are many Archetypes on the Master Kumu diagram and yet a search for "bathtub" does not result in anything. I am wondering what a basic inflow, stock, outflow diagram would be called and what you would call it if it had one feedback loop on the outflow.

Gene Bellinger
Gene Bellinger
Richard Turnock

First, a basic description of a model using the elements: inflow, outflow and stock. This is not a system because there is no feedback loop. Example is a bathtub with open drain and faucet flowing, where the stock level remains constant. Can also show graphs with different combinations of inflow and outflow rates.

Second, starting with the first model above, add one feedback loop on the drain. Examples are bathtub, intravenous drug being eliminated from the body.

Brian

I just forked this project (boy does that sound rude). I did provide I believe appropriate attribution. I plan on using some of this for background in a project I am currently working on.

Ruediger

Is the perspectives project still alive? Will it be updated?

Gene Bellinger

@rudy Yes, the project is still alive though things are being rethought at the moment. The overview at http://www.systemswiki.org/ may clarify the current state of things.

Ruediger
Geoff McDonnell

Gene, welcome back! How effective do you think this will be in reducing polarised perspectives in the world and then produce effective collective action?

Gene Bellinger

Geoff, there are those for whom no amount of facts will change what they consider to be the truth. Someone in particular comes to mind. I do hope each story has more of an insight than some of the crap I've created in the past. We'll see. I have lots to do.

As for another thought, you can't actually change other people's mind. I think the best you can do is provoke thought... Columbo comes to mind one more time!

Geoff McDonnell

So perhaps your focus is on helping advocacy coalitions making their ideas clear and making it more likely their actions will produce intended effects?

Gene Bellinger

How's this... The Perspectives Project surfaces noteworthy stories of relationships and their implications, to provoke thought, foster deeper understanding, create insights, and enable more effective action.

Geoff McDonnell
Ruediger
Gene Bellinger

Rudy, thanks for the words of encouragement and the links. Look forward to spending some time with them.

Brian

Hi Gene,

So the Perspective Project will be replacing the SystemsWiki? It seems to be something very different not only in structure but purpose. Are you also having second thoughts about System Archetypes? I see that you updated them. There doesn't seem to be a connection anymore, if there ever was, to your Archetype project. https://kumu.io/stw/systems-archetypes I forked your project so that I was ensured access to the material though no longer subject to updating. I am keeping my Wiki and will be adding a link to Perspectives but still thinking about how to integrate it. The links to the Archetype project also seem to be broken in your recent Recovering Systems Thinker giving a 404. Btw what does WiP stand for?

Brian

Gene Bellinger

Brian, So many questions...

  • The structure is different though the purpose is pretty much the same... understanding relationships and their implications.
  • I wish Kumu would have adopted Insight Makers URL convention so the links didn't break every time you change the name of something. I try to use permalinks https://kumu.io/-/13950 but then one doesn't know what the hell it is. I found I had two complete archetype projects in different place and the individual archetypes need to be in Perspectives so I just sorted out how not to have to manage two different description sets. In a few days I should get this sorted out.
  • Fixed the link to the Archetype project in Recovering Systems Thinker. Thanks for the catch.
  • WiP -> Work in Progress
  • If you want to keep up with this please follow https://kumu.io/stw/perspectives/issues/69 be amazing, gene
Brian

Already have been. following.

Gene Bellinger

Brian, I managed to forget that if one follows a thread their symbol only shows up if they post something to the thread. So many options to remember. Oooops!

Brian

Hi Gene,

I have a perspective, using the word in a broad sense, related question which could impact what I have been working on. Two "arrangements", I am not sure what is a higher order word above system and collection. Each arrangement has the same elements within them so as collections they are identical. However, the relationships between the elements within the two arraignments is different, different connections following different paths. They also have because of their relational configurations, different boundaries and different purposes or these aspects result in different configurations. Are these two different systems? I have been thinking about this for awhile and believe they are but would appreciate a different perspective.

Brian

Gene Bellinger

Brian, I don't know what a system is and really don't care. It sounds like you have a set of elements configured differently in two different situations serving different purposes. Label them based on their intent. A concrete block holding up my porch is a post and when I tie it to a rope and throw it overboard in my boat it's an anchor. As Beer said, the purpose of a thing is what it does though that may not be what it was intended to do. And there are no "things," just bundles of relationships with a label attached, typically relating to its purpose.

Brian

Gene,

Thank you. So sets of relationships nested within higher-order sets of relationships organized in terms of purpose, real or espoused, combining Beer and Argyris which we label depending on where we place the boundary as "systems". System then becomes the "Buddhist Chariot" but then so is everything else. https://www.thoughtco.com/king-milindas-questions-450052

Brian

Gene Bellinger

Brian, seems like the article and I are relatively well aligned.

Isn't the purpose of a thing likely to depend on what you choose to include within the boundary you have chosen to label?

Grit Hartung

I wonder what is the best place to see the status quo of things please // note: ATM database error on http://www.systemswiki.org/
Thanks

Grit Hartung

May I get permission the Kumu Perspectives outline please? Much appreciate

Gene Bellinger

Grit, The Perspectives project was started a year ago as part of a project that fizzled then in Nov 2017 systemswiki.org evaporated when the isp I was using went out of business. After thinking about it I decided not to recreate systemswiki.org. As such where to get the status quo of things there isn't a place at present and hopefully, I'll get that sorted out in my mind soon.

The Perspectives Outline is now public. I thought it was though based on your comment I realized Diigo treats the public link different for me and the public. I have a bunch of changes to make. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

Please login or sign up to comment.
open

Opened by systemswiki

Follow this issue
  • Gene Bellinger
  • Richard Turnock
  • Brian
  • Ruediger
  • Geoff McDonnell
  • Grit Hartung